How to Have a Seat at the Revenue Table

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Presenter: Welcome back to the Blueprint Series! Today’s topic is how to have a seat at the revenue table. This is going to be a very fun discussion, and I’m really looking forward to it. This is probably one of the most exciting of the Blueprints… Blueprint series that we’ve ever done. I can just mention that

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Presenter: This is actually applicable for fraud, obviously, but it’s really something that all organizations that are considered cost centers should be listening to. So, very good stuff today. I’ve got two guests, so I’m honored to have Kevin Lee, who is the field CTO at SIFT,

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Presenter: He’s going to be bringing a cross-functional lens, seeing how risk and revenue really align in practice. And then we have Jacob Sanchez, who’s a trust and safety architect, and he’s going to be bringing the operator perspective from building and scaling fraud and trust programs in high-volume environments. So, gentlemen, welcome both.

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Presenter: Great to be here!

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Presenter: Awesome.

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Presenter: All right, so let’s just jump into the first slide, and I love this slide, because it really just shows how the attack surface has been expanding. And I can imagine that, very similar to information security.

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Presenter: you’re getting an explosion of new tools, new AI that no doubt is adding a lot to this, but explosion of tools, explosion in that kind of dark economy, and then obviously siloed teams. Kevin, walk us through… what do you think about this slide and the various components of it?

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Presenter: Yeah, thanks, Jerry. And so, the reason why I also love this slide is when it comes to fraud teams or trust and safety teams today, certainly the industry has changed, whether it’s because of AI or, frankly, more and more people are moving their

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Presenter: identities online, and that means a lot more value for consumers. When I look at my phone, I have

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Presenter: well over 200 apps, let’s say, installed on there. I don’t use all of them every day, but I use quite a bit, and they’re not just for…

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Presenter: financial purposes, and all that, from a consumer perspective, is a great thing, but that all enhances or increases the surface area from an attack vector standpoint. And so, from a fraud team perspective, really on the left-hand side, you have that global fraud economy, and those are all the different ways, and there’s actually even more now, that

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Presenter: customers and folks can be taken advantage of. And then, of course, you have all the internal stuff that a fraud team has to deal with, whether it’s from a tooling perspective or a siloed teams perspective. And really where it comes into play when it comes to revenue, and this is really for the discussion today, is around… it’s not just about

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Presenter: chargebacks anymore. There is so much opportunity from a quote-unquote revenue standpoint that is ripe for disruption, and fraud teams must be thinking about this stuff in order to not only defend the platform and protect it, but also be proactive, and also think about ways where they can add to the business themselves, so they don’t have to get

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Presenter: Caught up into the, hey, we’re just a cost-centered type of mentality.

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Presenter: I love it, I love it. So, clearly, this means by this… by this expansion, the fraud team’s mandate is going to be expanding as well, which is our next slide.

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Presenter: Jacob, walk us through a little bit on this evolving… whoops, sorry about that… evolving fraud mandate. We’re being probably asked to do a lot more with the same or less. What are your thoughts?

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Presenter: Yeah, I think in the old world, we were focused on losses only. What is our chargeback rate? What is our chargeback and potentially refund rate over purchases? And, look, being in the space for 13 plus years, leading fraud teams in different programs, that is usually the first thing, right? It’s the first thing to tackle. But once you’ve gotten past that barrier, it’s a whole slew of…

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Presenter: other problems that you’re going to be expected to face, and so the fraud team now owns other things like abuse rates, so what is perhaps, like, an account takeover rate, or a customer friction rate, or what other abuse is happening on your platform, depending on your product and your service. We’re also focused about acceptance rates, so payment acceptance rate usually is a payments metric, but this goes hand-in-hand with fraud a lot of the times, and a lot of times it’s housed within the same organization at a company.

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Presenter: Customer experience, super important, right? You want to be able to…

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Presenter: stop the loss, prevent any risk to the business and to the product, but that also means you need to have sophisticated ways to do that so you don’t get in front of the customer and don’t affect a normal customer’s experience. And then operational cost, which is, I think, a hidden cost, I think, with fraud teams, where it being something that

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Presenter: I think traditionally has been seen as, like, the cost of doing business for the program. We need tools, we need people, we need time to do things, but that’s quickly changing to be a very key consideration for a team. Like, how are you tying fraud investment to revenue outcomes, and how do the two kind of work in sync with the rest of the company mandates, and making sure that

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Presenter: Fraud teams are caring more about chargeback rate and the overall growth of the company.

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Presenter: Jacob, is this… do you get the sense that a lot of teams are under… they’re under a lot of pressure, right? Under a lot of stress, trying to figure out how to evolve the mandate from chargeback rate only to abuse rate, acceptance rate, everything you just said.

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Presenter: What is your feeling? Is the… from that point of view, are folks frustrated? Are they trying to figure it out? What is the tone from when you talk to them a lot? It’s a thing where you want to make sure you’re doing the best with what you have, and sometimes that means more investment, more sophistication, and greater operational costs. And at the same time, we’re competing with things like AI layoffs being pretty prominent in

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Presenter: all tech spaces, and having to contend with that, right? Are you making the right trade-offs? Are you expanding more on technology versus needing to scale out headcount? And how do you kind of transform the way you do operations that it’s most effective for your team? And then that operational cost starts to blend in, and you get your ROI for everything that you have built.

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Presenter: Nice, nice. I’d love to hear from… I’d love to hear from Kevin. Kevin, this is quite the slide, because it really shows those various priorities, and we looked at 2026,

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Presenter: And they’re all neck and neck, so it’s almost like these three priorities are right equally there, so this is quite the balancing act.

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Presenter: what… how do we decide? How do we prioritize? Where do we start?

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Presenter: Yeah, this particular survey was taken from the MRC, their payments and fraud Survey. For those in the audience, hey, if you don’t look at this annual report, I highly recommend it. It provides great insight into, kind of, what is our industry thinking, and what are we up to? And essentially, what we’re looking at here is, under, let’s say, your top parties as a fraud professional.

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Presenter: Yes, of course, loss rates, that’s gonna be omnipresent, and that will always be there. But really, over the years, customer experience is neck and neck, and really over the last couple here.

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Presenter: that operational cost is coming to bear, where it is neck and neck across the board, and I do see this weather, especially right now, in our space, there is a lot of layoffs going on, and there is a lot of pressure from

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Presenter: fraud teams, and it’s not just a fraud team, look, it’s across the board, where if we are not able to show the impact that we have on the business, an impact might be in revenue, yes, it might be in cost savings as well, but we need to be much, much more

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Presenter: articulate telling that story, because if we don’t, someone else is going to tell it for us. And I’ve been in the room where

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Presenter: if I’m not able to… look, it’s not…

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Presenter: Whether it’s defending the team, and it’s not about me and nobody else, but it’s really about having context, whether it’s for your manager or for your leadership team.

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Presenter: They’ve got to have context on what you do and how you do it, and the impact, or the revenue impact, the loss impact, etc, that you and your team bring to the table. Because if that doesn’t happen, then yes, there is absolutely…

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Presenter: is more risk for layoffs in your particular department, because they don’t have that context. And I do want to highlight that a bit from that revenue perspective, where, yes, we want to grow top-line revenue, and we can absolutely do that as a broad team, but also be mindful of, hey.

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Presenter: How can we leverage other tools and systems to make sure that we are doing it as efficiently as possible?

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Presenter: Wow, so the pressure is on, and I think this goes to fraud and anybody in a cost center. If you…

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Presenter: You’ve got to make sure that you’re putting your story in the business context, right? It’s not just, hey, we did X,

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Presenter: It’s gotta be… this is how the business benefited. Really good stuff. Okay.

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Presenter: So, this is time for the audience. We’d love to know, please fill this out if you could, beyond the loss rate, which of the following does your team actively measure and report on? Is it just the acceptance rate, false positive rate, customer friction and abandonment, operational cost per review, or we primarily track losses only?

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Presenter: So we’ll give everybody just a few seconds to fill that out. Kevin, while we’re waiting for folks to fill that out, did you want to double-click into any of these, or want me to go back to that previous slide to talk a bit more?

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Presenter: Yeah, in terms of customer friction and abandonment, one thing that I encourage folks to look at is

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Presenter: let’s say you’re on the child and safety or fraud team. Of course, you’re going to be measuring things like chargeback rate and acceptance rate, like a hawk, but it is really important, as we get access to more data here.

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Presenter: To look at that conversion rate, or that drop-off rate, over time, and…

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Presenter: sometimes I do view the fraud team as the arbiter, ultimately, when it comes to what transactions or accounts do we want to let on the system or let off the system. And understanding what that abandonment rate looks like, kind of, at each different stage is absolutely critical, and the more insight you can have there, the better.

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Presenter: The voting was clear. It looks like, of the folks in the audience, false positive rate was the overwhelming choice.

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Presenter: Kevin, is that good, just to focus on false positive? I don’t think so. It’s probably… that’s one of many.

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Presenter: One of many, so I think the false positive rate, yes, that rate, depending on

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Presenter: How you want to measure it can differ per business, or per area around that customer kind of life cycle, but yes.

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Presenter: False positive rate is absolutely important, but I’ll call it the impact of that false positive rate, which kind of ties into that customer friction and abandonment use case. That’s really where it is also becoming more and more necessary to track.

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Presenter: Nice, nice.

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Presenter: So, this slide, why is fraud left out of the revenue conversation? I want to quote you, Kevin, because you said this right before we started, you said.

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Presenter: if you don’t represent your story, somebody else is going to represent it for you. And I think that kind of says the whole thing. Real quickly, why is fraud? I know we’re going to get into it in the following slides, but just, what is the elevator pitch in terms of why fraud is left out of the revenue conversation?

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Presenter: Yeah, I think, really, the summary comes down to, as a fraud practitioner.

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Presenter: Over the vast majority of our time is being spent in that area, and we’re looking for the bad guys, and we want to defend the platform and the product. And we are likely in this business, or in this vertical.

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Presenter: Because we’re super passionate about it. And that is a great thing in terms of working with different fraud fighters over the years. There is such passion in fighting this stuff, and wanting to fight the good fight. And that consumes us in a good way. But we also need to recognize, as we shift onto the next slide, is that, look.

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Presenter: the vast majority of the business isn’t necessarily focused on that thing just as we are. And, case in point, think about your business today. How many folks are focused on fraud and various forms of abuse, and how many folks are focused on non-fraud and abuse kind of activities, right? And so.

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Presenter: Just keep that in mind, and when we come at it.

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Presenter: and especially from a revenue perspective, it… I think one key or one unlock would be understanding the priorities of these other teams, and how to optimize for their success. And as we work in this kind of 1% range, again, it’s absolutely important, because if we don’t

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Presenter: do well here, or we’re not good stewards when it comes to this zone. That kind of sub 1% can cause a disproportionate amount of impact, negative impact, to the business, and yes, we’re going to be responsible for that, too.

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Presenter: And so, that’s one thing to keep in mind here, like, recognizing the core tension that we have, and not to be too myopic here, of course, we’re going to think about other people’s objectives as well, but I would encourage folks to actually, as we go into, let’s say, H2 planning or Q3 planning when it comes to OKRs.

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Presenter: Think about the actions that your team takes, and how can that apply to other teams, and what are other teams’ goals and OKRs, and how can you affect that particular flow for them?

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Presenter: Yep.

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Presenter: Yeah, this is a slide that I think anybody in fraud or security for that matter, really should have right above their desk at all times, because I think this really tells the story. I love that slide.

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Presenter: Jacob, tell us about the two different objectives here. So, the fraud teams do one thing, the rest of the org does something else. It’s building on what Kevin was just talking about. Walk us through the contrast here. Yeah, absolutely. I think…

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Presenter: Fraud teams focus on reducing risk, blocking bad orders, and protecting the business overall. And the rest of the team, if we’re thinking about growth, we’re looking at

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Presenter: Growth teams, marketing teams, commercial and company OKRs on the approve objectives.

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Presenter: Look at payments teams, revenue teams, sales-focused teams, and convert is marketing and customer experience, right? Different objectives, but different sides of the same coin. It’s how are we treating customers, what experience are customers getting as they’re coming onto our platform or our service? And so, how can we leverage that to the fraud team’s advantage? And that goes to our next slide.

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Presenter: Yep. Yeah, so this is the alignment, and what I like about this is, again, I come from the security world, so this is very parallel to what security should be doing as well, so it’s building those alliances, and essentially making sure that we’re all on the same team to stop fraud.

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Presenter: Kevin, do you want to walk us through the major metrics that you’ve seen work best when fraud wants to build credibility outside of its team?

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Presenter: Yeah, absolutely, and I mentioned a little bit earlier around

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Presenter: company or team OKR. Obviously, the fraud team is going to have our own. What is equally, I’d say, important here, and this is a concept that has been around for a while, is called the first team concept. And that first team concept in business is that the folks that I serve as, let’s say, the fraud manager of a particular team.

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Presenter: isn’t necessarily my direct reports. Of course, I’m going to represent them and work with them very closely, but my first team is actually my cross-functional peers on the growth team, the customer success team, product, security, finance, etc. And the better insights I have into what they want to accomplish.

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Presenter: the better impact I’ll have. And so, case in point, let’s say, when I talk about the customer support team.

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Presenter: And one of their OKRs is around, let’s say, turnaround time, and yes, ultimately, they are going to get some inquiries from folks that the fraud team is impacting, and those sometimes can be difficult conversations.

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Presenter: what OKRs, let’s say, can I have on my books that… where I can have a joint OKR with the customer success team, where it’s like, hey.

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Presenter: what can I do to help give you either one more insight, or maybe you give me more insight, in terms of accounts that are being impacted by the fraud team? And are there things, whether it’s from a signal perspective, a policy and procedure perspective, a workflow or a business policy perspective, that I can do to help out these other teams?

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Presenter: And that really… what it’s going to do at the end of the day.

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Presenter: is earn that, I’ll call it internal influence at these cross-functional teams, where

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Presenter: Hey, when it comes to getting resources.

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Presenter: dev resources or ops resources, financial resources. Sometimes we have to feel like we have to beg, borrow, and steal here when it comes to this stuff, but if we are able to work cross-functionally with these different counterparts and align on some joint objectives.

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Presenter: it’ll be ultimately a very good thing where, hey, if I’m able to help you out, you’re gonna essentially reciprocate and help me out as well. And the framing of that conversation

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Presenter: becomes very different. And so, if you’re willing to share and come out of the shell a little bit and work cross-functionally, I think you’ll find that many of these teams will be ultimately reciprocated, or you will get the downstream benefits of that type of joint work.

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Presenter: Devin, I love this idea. I’ve done something similar with security, trying to set OKRs up together so they’re… they’re shared. Is that… out of curiosity, is that something… and we’re getting a little bit now into, kind of, the inner dynamics of these companies.

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Presenter: Is that something that should be bonused on, do you think, at an individual or a group level? Because if it’s not, then how important is it going to be, or is it something that we should say, yeah, all right, various teams, we’re all fighting fraud here, you help us achieve these OKRs, and they’re part of your bonus. What do you think?

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Presenter: Yeah, so in terms of bonus.

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Presenter: I won’t say straight cash money, but where I do feel, and this gets into

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Presenter: bonus in terms of recognition and promotion, which, yes, can come with financial incentives as well. The folks that

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Presenter: I tend to reward on teams, and whether it’s within SIFT or managing my own teams at other companies like Meta or Square or Google.

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Presenter: the impact that a person has or a team has, ultimately, you can only go so far as an individual, either a person or team. The areas that have the most impact

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Presenter: tend to require a lot of cross-functional support, whether it’s from the legal team, or engineering team, or compliance team. And so, if there is an initiative that can benefit not only my team or another team, but there is a… essentially a joint impact here, that is going to

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Presenter: ultimately bode very well for that person if they were helping lead that objective. When it comes to promotion or bonuses or other forms of recognition, that will absolutely help them.

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Presenter: Nice, nice. I love that. You get, like, a fraud-fighting badge or something like that, showing… demonstrating leadership and commitment to the organization. That’s great.

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Presenter: Very good, so I want to hear the audience. So, which team is your fraud function most closely aligned with today? Is it risk and compliance? Is it finance? Product or engineering, operations, marketing? Or are we largely operate independently?

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Presenter: Yeah, this is an interesting one. This also has a parallel in the information security space. Sometimes information security reports to the CFO, sometimes the CIO, sometimes directly to the CEO, sometimes to the CTO, sometimes to the board, so it would make sense that fraud also has a variety

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Presenter: of various places. Kevin, is there sometimes controversy over the best place that the fraud teams should report into?

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Presenter: I’ve worked on various teams across my career, and I’ve sat in all of these departments, frankly, and the only thing that matters

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Presenter: at the end of the day, is that you have good rapport with all these other teams. You could be in any department, but because fraud is so cross-functional, if you have good rapport

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Presenter: with…

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Presenter: kind of folks within these different departments, you’re going to be doing well. If you are stuck in that scenario, and look, this is the only team that I work with, and it’s really siloed out, that’s gonna be a tough slog, man. You’re going to have a much, much more difficult time trying to accomplish not only your team’s goals, but ultimately your company’s goals.

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Presenter: our audience has spoken, it looks like it’s pretty much a toss-up between risk or compliance and operations, so that seems reasonable, and actually, Kevin, I loved your answer, which is, you’re going to be building so many cross-organizational relationships anyway, it doesn’t really matter where you sit, as long as I’m imagining you have very good executive support.

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Presenter: Great. All right, so moving forward, aligning fraud to the rest of the organization. Jacob, can you talk us through this and give us a concrete example of signal sharing that maybe improved both fraud outcomes and business outcomes, if you have one top of mind?

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Presenter: Yeah, I love this conversation. I think a lot of this is taking what the business has, so the rest of the org, giving you a signal, then the fraud team’s interpreting that and then delivering an outcome on it. So, fraud teams have all these signals that come together. We have a lot of insight into the entire user flow. If we look at marketing signals as top of the funnel and product-level signals as bottom of the funnel, a lot of those signals can be disconnected, even though marketing signals, for instance, can be

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Presenter: valuable insights for a fraud team. A good question to frame to, like, a marketing team is to be saying something like, what would you do with 30% more marketing budget if we could save you that by ingesting these signals, using them to our benefit, and then

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Presenter: pairing that with everything else that we have to make a better defense and better program and operation to fight fraud. So, like I said, marketing signals are good for fraud, and in fact, we usually share in the same signals. However, they’re coming from different platforms, or there’s just a little bit more granularity on certain sides of it. But understanding what metrics matter to the marketing team, to the product team, is key to achieving that kind of joint

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Presenter: effort and ingesting the right signals where you need them. So talk to them about what their OKRs are, talk to them about their KPIs, and align on any projects that perhaps get you… get many teams served with one… with one deliverable. So if a data engineering team is ingesting some sort of web analytics on something that is maybe net new to the company.

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Presenter: Because it’s getting into a shared database, that’s beneficial for everybody in the entire company, and then you can really have an impact on the business, and

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Presenter: Get signals where they’ve been historically lacking or missing.

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Presenter: everybody should be friends with the fraud team, because they’ve got some phenomenal data that will help all the other teams as well. You know, this is where…

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Presenter: So, Kevin, get into reframing revenue. Really, how do we help teams quantify and communicate that revenue protection story? Because I think this is the key, right? You’re going from, hey, we blocked X, to we enabled this much revenue, right? So, what does that story look like?

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Presenter: Yeah, and really, this comes in handy, I’ll call it, when you get one or two steps removed from the fraud team, and you are ultimately reporting up to, let’s say, the

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Presenter: chief risk officer or the operations team, they may not have the same context you have, and so if you can put things in languages that they understand, whether it’s we protected X amount in revenue, or we are accepting

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Presenter: why more good orders over this period of time? Because of, let’s say, a new process, or new signal, or a new business policy that you’ve implemented, those are all things that you can and should essentially take credit for. Another area is, let’s say businesses are growing, and they’re going into, whether new geographies or new product lines.

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Presenter: the question that you should be asking yourself and your team is, hey, how can we help, let’s say, underwrite this new product or get into this new geography? Because it can be a strategic advantage for you and the company, the better, not only signals that you have for the fraud team.

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Presenter: But if you can act quickly and get that insight in a way that can be scaled across the company, that will be

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Presenter: Essentially, better, because your competitors, let’s say, in this space, won’t be able to do that as quickly as you, and speed often wins.

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Presenter: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Competitive advantage there. I love that.

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Presenter: just… we only have a few more minutes, Jacob, so this is speed round. I have fallen into the success trap before. So, in security, I did a great job of mitigating risk.

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Presenter: And I went to go show my results, and the upper-level management was like, okay, great, that means we can reduce your budget next year. This is not what I wanted to hear. Jacob, from an operational point of view, that looks like it happens in risk… I’m sorry, in fraud as well. Tell us a few things about how do we avoid becoming victims of our own success? Absolutely, Jerry. That’s the same story me and Kevin have faced, too. If you’re doing well, it can go one of two ways.

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Presenter: either you do more with what you have, and that means sometimes you can get better investment, better tooling, more people, or we’re doing well, and so we’re covered, right? And sometimes that means we’re cutting budget, or if you had things like open headcount, or perhaps a new vendor waiting in the wings, that

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Presenter: can get cut, and then you’re expected to perform at the same level with what you have. And so, it’s important to… to know, just because you have good investment in tools and signals, just because we’re right-sized as a function, have the capabilities and skill set to do it, how can you find ways to show that you’re doing more with what you have, and that way you can buy… buy incremental kind of buy-in from your company and from your leadership team. That way you don’t get stuck in this kind of complacency, and you’re not able to…

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Presenter: Evolve with the threats of the landscape.

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Presenter: Exactly, exactly. Okay.

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Presenter: So, we’ll skip this question since we’re short on time. So, let’s just go to starting the revenue conversation. Kevin, if somebody wants to call… somebody on this call wants to start changing the conversation next week, what’s the first move you tell them to make in terms of aligning themselves in this… in the way that we’ve been discussing?

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Presenter: First move is really understanding what are the top-level business desired outcomes for, let’s say, the rest of the year.

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Presenter: And what are the signals or tools or systems that the fraud team can help contribute to make that a greater success? Yes, loss rates will still be very top of mind for you, but it won’t be, frankly, for the vast majority of the business. And so what are other areas that you can create that impact, whether it’s revenue or something else?

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Presenter: that can help benefit the company. And the second thing I’ll add is really around… it’s more about than just making friends with folks cross-functionally, but really having a deep understanding of what are their objectives, and people are people here. If we’re able to get an understanding of what they’re working on and build that rapport.

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Presenter: Ultimately, that’ll lead to higher company success and individual success.

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Presenter: I love it. So everybody, take a screenshot of this. These are the concrete actions that you can take to implement, and as Kevin and Jacob said, this is an existential thing. You’ve got to make sure that you put fraud into that business context to make sure that you have the revenue, the resources and the support to continue to help protect your companies.

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Presenter: That was it. Thank you both. This was a great, fantastic, very too-quick webinar. For those folks… for those folks who are following the Blueprint series, please check our Blueprint Series landing page for the next event. Thank you all very much, have a wonderful rest of the day, and Kevin and Jacob, thank you both.

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Presenter: Thank you, take care, everybody.